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Updated on April 27, 2022 now includes the transcript of the interview.
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This special episode of Grandangolo (Wide Angle) includes an interview with Bruce Gagnon, a member of the No War Movement in the United States.
The news preceding our interview and Gagnon’s analysis confirm the gravity of the situation.
“And Russians have said they’ve identified English, French, Swedish, German and probably Italian as well. So, I think there’s no doubt about it that the US and NATO are in this war. It’s not just a Ukraine versus Russia war, this is a US NATO war using Ukraine as tool in order to fight against Russia”. (Bruce Gagnon, Interview below)
After starting the sequence of events that led to the Russian military operation in Ukraine with the 2014 coup in Kyiv, the United States and NATO are doing everything to fuel this war in Europe making it permanent.
The political-media campaign has intensified to make Russia appear a ferocious enemy killing civilians in Ukraine and threatening the whole of Europe.
At the same time, the Azov regiment and the other neo-Nazi formations, spearhead of the 2014 coup and the attack on the Russians of Ukraine, are presented as brave partisan brigades that resist the invader to defend their people.
In this situation, the news, that neo-Nazi armed groups are preparing a new massacre of civilians to attribute the responsibility to Russian forces, such as that of Kramatorsk caused by a Ukrainian missile, is particularly worrying. There are serious indications that attacks on churches are being prepared during Orthodox Easter on April 24.
In this incandescent situation, the United States and its European allies continue to send increasing quantities of weapons to Ukraine. The US has supplied Kyiv with weapons worth over 3 billion dollars: among these weapons, there are over 50 million bullets, 20,000 missiles, 700 kamikaze drones, and thousands of anti-personnel mines. 30 US-allied and partner countries, including Italy, also supply arms to Ukraine. At the same time, Kyiv’s forces, especially neo-Nazis, are being trained by the United States, which effectively commands them. According to his direct experience, former Paris Match deputy director Régis Le Sommier confirms it.
Pangaea GRANDANGOLO, INTERNATIONAL PRESS REVIEW, on BYOBLU
channel 262 digital terrestrial
channel 462 Tivùsat, channel 816 Sky
Every Friday at 20:30
After the first transmission, the episode of Grandangolo is visible, together with the previous ones, on the site.
Interview with Bruce Gagnon
JTMV: Welcome. Bruce Gagnon to Pangea. It’s very nice of you to be here with us.
Bruce GAGNON : I appreciate it. Thank you.
JTMV: In your opinion, for what reason Russia decided like to carry out the military intervention in Ukraine. In what broader context does the war in Ukraine fit?
Bruce GAGNON: Well, I think we have to go back to at least 2014 when the United States orchestrated a coup d’etat in Kyiv, installing a new government that was really backed by the muscle of Nazis who predominate in Western Ukraine. And immediately, the people in Eastern Ukraine along the Russian border in what’s called the Donbas region, they became very fearful because one of the first things this new government did was to say that the speaking of Russian in Ukraine would be illegal. So, people began holding peaceful protest marches in Eastern Ukraine.
And they also were gathering signatures for a referendum saying, let’s have a Federated Ukraine, where we have local autonomy. We can speak what language we wish to speak, and we can also elect our own local officials rather than have them appointed by the new government. And so immediately, under the direction of the US and NATO, Nazis were sent eastward into the Donbas. One of the first videos I saw, in fact, was in Mariupol in 2014. I was watching all of this on YouTube, basically in real time, right before my eyes. And the people of Mariupol were protesting and Nazis were sent in, and I saw them gunning people down, shooting them in the streets.
JTMV: The Pentagon published on April 14 a fact sheet on US assistance to Ukraine’s security, with an impressive list of armaments provided to Kyiv’s forces. The official rationale is that in this way the U.S. is helping Ukraine defend itself against Russian aggression. Is this the case or is the reason different?
Bruce GAGNON: So very quickly, the people tried to defend their families. It was literally at that point, most of the people that came into this, what I called self-defense forces to protect themselves against these Nazis came out of the coal mines, and they were school teachers and electricians and musicians, a real people’s militia. And so, this is really how the civil war began. Russia did not invade, as is often said in mainstream media, they did, over time, begin to supply weapons to these self-defense forces so they could protect themselves and their families.
At the same time, the United States and NATO set up a military training base. This was during the Obama administration. They set up a military training base in the Western side of the country in the region where the Nazis predominate. And it was there that they were training these Nazis, brought them into a new special force’s unit that was created by the United States. And I even watched a video in 2016 of Obama’s ambassador to Ukraine going to this base, meeting with soldiers that were coming from the United States to train these Nazis.
So, this is really the mess that was created intentionally, I believe, because the United States fears the growing power of Russia and China, this unity of those two economies, signing up other countries to be part of a multipolar world where this idea of the US being the unipolar power, the single power of the world as it has been so much since the end of World War II.
The US fears that dramatically and knows that it only has a small window left, a small amount of time to try to break this multipolar movement apart. And so, this is what I believe is behind this whole thing. The US is trying to create a festering sore along the border of Russia. And in the Rand Corporation, one of the Pentagon think-tanks that is based in California, they did a study in 2019 that says we’ve got to overextend and unbalance Russia and we must use Ukraine as a tool in order to do that.
So, they knew that if they could create an Afghanistan or a Syria type situation along the Russian border, it would force Russia to militarily intervene. It would force Russia to spend a lot of money on the military. It would not be going for human needs. And it would also allow the West to further demonize Moscow, calling for regime change in Russia and ultimately to break Russia up into smaller countries like the US and NATO did in 1999 with the Balkanization of Yugoslavia.
The reason I believe that they want to break Russia into smaller countries is because of climate change, in part with the melting excuse me, with the melting of the Arctic ice, there’s the ability to drill, baby drill in that Arctic region.
And in fact, just as this war started in February, the US and NATO were holding war games up in Northern Norway, along the Russian Arctic Coast. It’s called Cold Response. And increasingly, we see the developments of US war games, military exercises up in the Arctic region. So clearly, the West wants the resources that Russia has, vast resource base. They want to break Russia into smaller pieces. And I think that’s what is really driving all of this.
So, Russia knew they had to intervene at some point. 14,000 people have died in the Donbas since 2014, since the constant shelling of the Russian ethnic citizens along the Russian border. And so, Russia knew they had to intervene to save lives because the Ukraine government had positioned 150,000 troops right along the contact line with the Donbas and were poised to invade in a full scale of salt.
JTMV: Thank you. Now, the Pentagon published on April 14 a fact sheet on US assistance to Ukraine security with an impressive list of armaments provided to Kyiv’s forces. The official rationale is that in this way, the US is helping Ukraine defend itself against Russia aggression. Is +this the case, or is there a reason different?
Bruce GAGNON: Well, I think there’s several things that work here. Number one is this war is going to benefit the weapons industry, the military-industrial complex, in a dramatic way. Not only is the United States supplying Ukraine with military hardware must be eventually replaced, obviously, but then also the NATO countries, particularly Eastern European NATO members, are supplying Ukraine with this military hardware.
It’s outdated technology. A lot of its Soviet era military technology and as a result, being NATO members, they’re going to have to purchase new stocks of weapons. And as it turns out any time a new NATO country comes into NATO, they are forced to buy weapons that are interoperable meaning that they fit inside of the US space directed warfare system. They have to be interoperable with US technology. So that means that they largely have to buy their weapons from American corporations. So, this is the other thing that’s happening.
By forcing Eastern European NATO members to deplete their weapons stocks, they’re going to have to replace them with interoperable technology. The US, of course will be in charge of the tip of the spear as they create this expanded NATO military mechanism and NATO is now going international as they’re signing up NATO partners throughout the Asia Pacific region including Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and other countries as well.
So really, NATO is saying that we’re not just protecting Europe anymore. We’re now going global. And I think one of the reasons for this is because at the United Nations, when NATO goes to the UN Security Council and ask for a resolution in support of another war, Russia and China are able to block that. But when NATO can create an international alliance, it believes it will be able to go to the world and say, look, we have an international, global support for these military actions, as they’re trying to do now with this operation in Ukraine. So, all of this then benefits the military industrial.
But then beyond that, going back to my earlier comment, you create this festering sore, this endless war situation. And we’ve heard from, I think his name is Mr. Burrell with the EU saying that the only way to solve this problem in Ukraine is through a war. Negotiations will not work. So, it’s quite clear that the US and NATO and I’m sure they’re instructing Zelensky, but we shouldn’t call him Zelensky because we’re not allowed to use the word, the letter Z anymore.
So really, NATO is saying that we’re not just protecting Europe anymore. We’re now going global. And I think one of the reasons for this is because at the United Nations, when NATO goes to the UN Security Council and ask for a resolution in support of another war, Russia and China are able to block that.
But when NATO can create an international alliance, it believes it will be able to go to the world and say, look, we have an international we have global support for these military actions, as they’re trying to do now with this operation in Ukraine. So, all of this then benefits the military industrial
So, we have to call him Elensky. But anyway, I believe Elensky is taking his marching orders from the CIA. They’re handing him a script written by Madison Avenue public relations firms in New York City and Hollywood. And him being an actor, I’m sure he’s quite adept at being able to read that script. So, no negotiations. Zelensky or Elensky is saying we’re going to fight for the next ten years. And so, they’re trying to put in the public’s mind that this war is going to be a long one another Afghanistan all over again.
JTMV: There are reports about the presence of U.S. Military personnel in Ukraine. Have you any information about this? What is the role of such personnel?
Bruce GAGNON: Well, I said earlier that soon after the coup d’etat in 2014, orchestrated by the United States, the US and NATO set up a training base, military training base in Western Ukraine. And to this base were brought US Special Forces units from Fort Carson, Colorado. And their job was to train these Nazis and then take off their uniforms that had Nazi insignias and everything else and put on uniforms issued by the United States to make it look like they were real army.
So, I knew about this because one of my dear friends, his son is in US Army Special Forces and was stationed at Fort Carson, Colorado. And on two occasions, my friend’s son was sent to this training base in Ukraine. So, I knew about it directly. And then I noted earlier that I watched a video where Obama’s ambassador in 2016, a guy named Jeffrey Piat.
He was part of that famous phone call with Victoria Newland in 2014, just after the coup happened in Maidan, where they were on the phone talking about the UN, the EU. We’re going to pick who we want to pick as the new lead of Ukraine. So anyway, since that time we know that Ukraine has been flooded with American and other NATO. And at this very moment that we’re speaking together in the city of Mariupol in Eastern Ukraine, the Nazis have mostly been routed. Several thousand have now surrendered to the Russians. But inside that huge steel works factory, they say underneath it there’s a Soviet era underground system of six to eight floors deep. And inside of this place, they say there are several thousand Nazis and most importantly, I think US and NATO military advisors.
So, it’s clear to me, having repeatedly heard about these US NATO military advisors throughout Ukraine at this current time, it’s clear that the US and NATO are still directing this operation. They’re leading it. And it’s obvious to me that the Ukrainian military made up of number one Nazis but also conscripts people that were forced into the military. Young people come off the farms, come out of the cities looking for jobs or actually forced into being there.
They were probably not highly motivated to fight the Russians knowing that they were up against one of the world’s most powerful militaries. And so we hear repeatedly that the Nazis are saying anybody that surrenders will be shot. And I’m certain that the US and NATO advisors are forcing this kind of dynamic into this battle that’s going on today.
But just in the last two or three weeks there have been several attempts by the Ukrainian government to send in helicopters into this area of this steelworks in Mariupol to try to take someone out. And on every occasion the Russians shot down the helicopters, but on one of the occasions they shot down a helicopter, but two people lived. They were not killed when the helicopters crashed.
And it is rumored, I don’t know this for a fact, but it’s been rumored repeatedly that one of the people caught apprehended was a us Major General. So, it’s obvious to me that the US and NATO were so desperate to risk the lives of these helicopter pilots, risk lives of anybody that they could put on the helicopters to help them escape. There were some important people in there and Russia is also incidentally saying that they’re picking up communications, phone communications from the bottom of that steelworks in six different languages.
And Russians have said they’ve identified English, French, Swedish, German and probably Italian as well. So, I think there’s no doubt about it that the US and NATO are in this war. It’s not just a Ukraine versus Russia war, this is a US NATO war using Ukraine as tool in order to fight againstRussia.
JTMV: Thank you, Bruce Gagnon. Now, a last quick question for a quick answer. According to your knowledge of US politics, when and how do you foresee the end of the war in Ukraine?
Bruce GAGNON: Well, just in the last two days, a message came out from CBS Television News where they interviewed a Senator, a US Senator by the name of Chris Coons from the State of Delaware. He’s from the same state that Joe Biden is, Chris Coons is said to be the leading Senator who is most close to Joe Biden.
He declared on CBS News that the United States should now send troops to Ukraine to help the Ukrainian government. Obviously, they see that Ukraine is losing this thing badly. And so, I think there is going to be a move to send US troops and NATO troops, particularly maybe to a country like Poland, for example, right on the border, send their troops in as well. So, we’re in a very dangerous moment. And again, I think that this desire to send US NATO troops in there immediately underscores this desire to keep this war going.
So, I don’t see an immediate end to it. Even if Russia was to completely finish things up in the next weeks, couple of weeks, I think the US and NATO will continue every effort they can to destabilize, to continue to arm right now in the United States. The US is training Ukrainian artillery people, going to give them new artillery equipment and send them back to Ukraine, and they’ll be able to fire into the Donbass region from far away. So that means that Russia will continually have to try to take those artillery positions out. So, this thing is going to drag on for some time.
JTMV: That’s not good news, actually. Well, thank you so much, Bruce Gagnon, for your participation. It was extremely interesting. Well, it doesn’t leave us much hope in the future, but let’s hope for the best.
Bruce GAGNON: Well, I think in all of our countries, we all have to work harder and harder to mobilize to try to stop this because it could lead to World War II, which could go nuclear in a red hot flash.
JTMV: Thank you so much. You’ve been very kind to participate in our program, and I hope to meet you again soon.
Bruce GAGNON: Thank you. Bye.
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This article was originally published in Italian on byoblu.
Manlio Dinucci, award winning author, geopolitical analyst and geographer, Pisa, Italy. He is a Research Associate of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG).
