Global Research

Dr. Joseph Mercola: So what do you think about what I just said? If you can comment on that, and then we’ll transition into what the next step is in our collaboration with Regeneration International.

Vandana Shiva: Well, I think the parallel you draw between Rockefeller as a robber baron around not just oil but created the Big Finance and created Big Pharma.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Vandana Shiva: Yeah. Now Rockefeller had very intimate connections with IG Farben. There was a Standard Oil IG Farben company. Without the fossil fuels of Standard Oil, the IG Farben couldn’t have either made the synthetic fertilizers or the fuels. So in fact, Hitler’s regime required this partnership, and they played it out even though the armies were fighting. They looked like two opposite camps, but when it came to making money, it was the same camp.

Vandana Shiva: A very big part of Rockefeller’s history has been captured by Lily Kay. When she went through the archives in “The Molecular Vision of Life,” how the Nazi regime, as a eugenics regime, thinking some people were inferior and should be exterminated for keeping the superior race pure, that thinking then migrated because Rockefeller was anyway in the States. And they started to call it social psychology as biological determinants. The skin-based determination, we are getting attacked, so let’s go under the skin and look at atoms of determinism. The word gene did not exist at that time. They called it atoms of determinism.

Vandana Shiva: And then Rockefeller paid research. Ninety-nine percent of the research shifted to molecular biology. Nobel Prizes shifted to molecular biology and the genetic determinism and the genetic reductionism, which is part of the silencing of the real true health. To have health means to be whole. To be whole means your self-organized brilliance of your integrative body as a complex system. That that wholeness is true health. That’s what Ayurveda is based on. Even Ayurveda has been attacked in recent times.

Vandana Shiva: But coming back to the parallels, Rockefeller was behind because he was driving the chemical industry. When the wars were over, they said, “Oh my gosh, all these chemicals to sell.” And they invented the Green Revolution and pushed the Green Revolution on India. Rockefeller, the World Bank, the U.S.A all worked together, and if the farmers of India are protesting today, it’s a result of that initiative of Rockefeller. The Green Revolution in India. Most people don’t realize what high cost India has born, what high cost the state of Punjab has born.

Vandana Shiva: Then you have Gates joining up with Rockefeller and creating the alliance for the Green Revolution in Africa. And in his new book, which pretends to be his solution to climate change, I say, “My god, what kind of stage as the world reached that absolute nonsense can pass the science?” I mean, I’ll give you just three examples from his chapter on agriculture, which he talks about how we grow things. So first of all, plants are not things. Plants are sentient beings. Our culture knows it. We have the sacred tulsi. We have the sacred neem. We have the sacred banyan. No, they are sentient beings. There are so many people are awake to animal rights. I think we need more people awake to plant rights and really tell Mr. Gates, “No, plants are not things.”

Vandana Shiva: He goes on to celebrate Norman Borlaug whose job, he was in the DuPont defense lab, whose job was to push these war chemicals by adapting the plants. So he created the dwarf varieties because the tall varieties are free varieties. We just refused. We refuse chemicals. Our plants said, “No.” I call him the first satyagrahis, the fight for truth. The plants said, “Sorry, don’t want chemicals.” They enlarge.

Vandana Shiva: Borlaug’s semi-dwarf varieties are cited by Gates as a big invention, and then he says we’re eating food because of Borlaug. No, people are starving because of Borlaug. The farmers are dying because of Borlaug.

Vandana Shiva: Then he goes on stance in front of a synthetic fertilizer plant and said the biggest invention, and I’m so happy. I’m happier than I even look. Doesn’t he realize synthetic nitrogen fertilizers are creating desertification, dead zones in the ocean and nitrous oxide, which is a greenhouse gas? He’s offering the problem as the solution.

Vandana Shiva: Then he goes on, I mean, talking about bad biology, he doesn’t know that nitrogen-fixing plants can fix nitrogen nonviolently. He says plants can’t fix nitrogen. He needs to come to England and study. He needs to understand and when he’s pushing the fake meat and the Impossible Burger, I said he needs to come and cook dal. Once he learns how to make dal with good nitrogen-fixing plants, he won’t have to speak the rubbish he’s able to get away with.

Vandana Shiva: And finally, no, no, the methane doesn’t come from factory farms. Have you smelt methane behind nomadic tribes? Have you ever smelt methane behind our sacred cow in India? No, they don’t emit methane. Methane is a result of intensive feed of beans to animals and putting them in these concentration camps, which then becomes emitted. That’s why the cave will stink. The concentration animal farm operation have a stink.

Vandana Shiva: You know what Mr. Gates wants to teach us? He says the cows make methane because their poor stomachs. They call them containers. I think we should sue him for undoing basic class one biology. You’ve talked about how to control the WHO. He’s trying to take control of the FAO. The FAO is [the] Food and Agricultural Organization, is based in Rome. It is what has recognized ecological agriculture as the way to go and supported agriculture ‘til last year until Gates started to take charge. And now he’s moving the [World] Food Summit to New York. Five hundred organizations have said, “This is no more a Food Summit. It’s a poison summit.” The poison cartel, and Bill Gates, the billionaires are running it to push more poisons now under new names.

Vandana Shiva: So we have a lot of work to do. 500 have said boycott, but we still need to come together. And we have to come together around truth and nonviolence and regeneration and away from untruth and fakeness and violence and the degeneration of our bodies, our health, the planet, our minds. Look at the people who are sick. How many people have lost work? How many people have lost food? How many people are sick? But in India, the farmers are doing fine. The villages are doing fine. When people are healthy and eating healthy food, there is no problem. The problem is where they’ve already made people suffer, and now they want to make people suffer even more. He wants to commit a crime against our gut microbiome pushing more fake food through Impossible Foods. And he wants to create conditions that real food will disappear. That’s why we all have to organize together and the scientists have to start being protected.

Vandana Shiva: I think our job, Dr. Mercola, is there’s an extinction taking place. They call it the sixth mass extinction. Most people think the sixth mass extinction is about other species. They don’t realize large parts of humanity are being pushed to extinction. Independent science, good healthy knowledge. That food is health, as Hippocrates said. Indigenous systems of learning, ecological agriculture, small farmers. In Bill Gates’ design, all this that makes life, life, that makes society, society, that makes community, community, that makes healthy beings, he would like to push this to extinction because he’s afraid of independence and freedom and health and our “beingness.” He wants us to be thingness, but we are beings.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yes, indeed. Well, thank you for commenting on that and helping to expand that vision connecting the dots with respect to Rockefeller and the pharmaceutical industry, which is an important one. And actually, Rockefeller and Carnegie, at the turn of the century, were responsible for producing what’s known as The Flexner Report in 1910, which largely acknowledges being the beginning of the end for natural medicine in conventional teaching. I mean, they eliminated it from all the medical schools. This largely is a result of seeking to replace those interventions with pharmaceutical that were derived from the oil industry.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: But I wanted to go a bit more into Gates in this transition because he knocked it out of the park. He was very clever in what he did, and it was a long-term play. I mean, he started really digging into his control of the World Health Organization over a decade ago. He had a long-term vision. He was able to pull it off and basically engineer a whole global response. And now he’s transitioning into pharma, and I would like you to elaborate on that.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Here’s one of my concerns, and I didn’t realize this until recently because the book I’m writing next year focuses on one of the most fundamental elements of optimizing human health, and that is the restriction of a very specific omega-6 fat, which is typically considered to be essential. It’s called linoleic acid. But if you eat food, you’re going to get more than enough. So the problem is that industrialized Western cultures, we have massive excesses. Five, six, 1,000-fold, 2,000-fold increases above what is needed for optimal health.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: The reason why that’s important to understand is because one of Gates projects, as you alluded to, was this Impossible meats and these engineered meats. Now it’s really important to understand these are not derived from some Star Trek replicator. They’re made from raw materials. The most important source of calories is fat. So where is the fat coming from this engineered meat? This is so crazy you can’t make it up. It’s coming from genetically modified soy and canola oil. So not only do you have the issues with GMOs, but then you have this massive excessive of omega-6 linoleic acid fat, which is going to absolutely accelerate destruction or movement towards every single chronic degenerative disease. So that’s a huge thing.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: But he’s also buying in some pharma. So I want you to tie those pieces together and tell us what is his plan? What do you see happening from Gates’ next phase?

Vandana Shiva: Well, both my book “Oneness vs. the 1%”-

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yeah, which I did an interview with you on it.

Vandana Shiva: Yes, you did. And then we did the “Gates to a Global Empire” where I realized he was entering every field that has to do with life because our work in Navdanya, which means nine seeds, is basically work on biodiversity in agriculture. We started to bring together all the work that he’s doing in taking over. So let me just run through.

Vandana Shiva: I mentioned the Rockefeller Green Revolution, now the Gates-Rockefeller Green Revolution in Africa. The next step he wants to push is he’s not saying no to chemical farming. He’s celebrating synthetic fertilizers, but he’s now talking about digital agriculture. And he names it Gates Ag One, and the headquarters of this is exactly where the Monsanto headquarters are – St. Louis, Missouri.

Vandana Shiva: Gates Ag One is one agriculture for the whole world organized top down. He’s written about it. We have a whole section on it in our new report “Gates to a Global Empire.”

Vandana Shiva: What does he want to do with digital? First of all, have the entire surveillance system introduced. I think we managed to stop seeds of surveillance startup he was starting where he would’ve liked pharmas to not be allowed to grow seeds unless the surveillance system had approved them. But I have fought in my life and my country to have the freedom of seeds defended. Article 3J of our patent law says plant seeds and seeds are not invention, therefore cannot be patented.

Vandana Shiva: And interestingly while this whole drama is going on in the vaccine question, the rich countries that pretend to be doing Gates’ philanthropy have absolutely refused to do the waiver on intellectual property showing very clearly it’s about moneymaking. It’s all about moneymaking. If you look at every vaccine, Gates has a finger in it.

Vandana Shiva: But coming back to the issue of one agriculture digitalized, and then for this, they have to do data mining because they don’t know agriculture. So Gates’ financing the policing of people in farmers’ homes in order to mine their data. How do they harvest? How do they trench their fields? And everything. And then sell it back to them – and Bayer, with what Monsanto is doing that – putting out data collection like Google does. They put data collection, then they sell back the data to you.

Vandana Shiva: Interestingly as far as the Impossible Burger is concerned, Bayer has said very clearly with the growth of plant-based food – but all food is plant-based, even animal food is plant-based because everything begins with photosynthesis. Everything begins with plants. But you can eat real plants or you can eat the fake food.

Vandana Shiva: The growth of fake food, which is totally engineered first three years ago, I think they created a eat forum and started to talk about this being the solution to all chronic diseases created by industrial agriculture, and who’s onboard on the forum? Who’s on board on Fresh? The poison cartel, the Bayers, the Monsantos and the fertilizer industry. Bayer has said this demand for plant-based, which is another way of talking about fake food made in [a] lab, basically it’ll make an increasing demand on raw crops, as they call them. And larger-scale production. Now no more of food but of raw materials of the carbohydrates, the fats and the proteins.

Vandana Shiva: So food is now being dismembered to become raw material for factories which will be the lab, and he’s driving this. But all this eventually begins in seed. So my work started on seed because Monsanto wanted to patent it. I said, “No, you don’t invent the seed. You will not patent a seed.” And we worked to create community seed banks, reclaim our seed freedom. Now Gates controls all the seed supply.

Vandana Shiva: During the Green Revolution, the Rockefeller Green Revolution I’ll call it, the World Bank financed international research institutions. They collected all the seeds of the farmers, and they’re in these gene banks, which have everything that farmers ever grew. Then the farmers were forced to grow chemical varieties and Green Revolution varieties. Now Gates controls all those CG systems. Gates is controlling the seeds of the world. The research of the world, the knowledge of the world and the fake food.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: How does he control them? How does he control them?

Vandana Shiva: Through funding, of course.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Okay. So he doesn’t own them.

Vandana Shiva: Just like he controls the World Health Organization.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yeah, just like he controls the media, I guess.

Vandana Shiva: Yes, through money. Money. Money control.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Okay. So he doesn’t outright own these seed companies, but he [crosstalk 00:22:56]- Vandana Shiva:

They’re not companies. They’re our public collections. They’re our public research. They’re the public commons of agriculture. He’s taking control, but control in this field means that then he uses – you see, at that time, the patenting was done through genetic engineering by actually introducing genes. Now he does it through genomic mapping. He’s got all the collections. All you need is little bits of seed, just read the genome. Your passport data tells you this is a drought prone seed, a salt tolerance seed. This one has a fragrance or a fragrant rice. You don’t have to know anything. The passport data tells you this is what it is. You do a genomic map, take a patent.

Vandana Shiva: He has Editas. See, he financed the research on gene editing to undercut all the bio safety laws of the world. Where the only country which doesn’t have biosafety laws is the United States, but the rest of the world does because we have a human treaty called the biosafety protocol, Cartagena Protocol on Biosafety under the Convention on Biological Diversity.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Okay, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Hold on. Time out. So how did he finance this thing? I mean, I wasn’t aware of this. It’s really intriguing.

Vandana Shiva: Well, my reading, and this is what I put in the “Oneness vs. the 1%” is when he is creating the appearance of philanthropy, what he’s doing is giving tiny bits of money to very vital institutions. But with those bits of money, they’re attracting all the government money, which was anyway running those institutions. But now because of his clout, he is taking control of the agenda of the institutions. Meantime, pushing patenting, and because he’s pushing patenting, whether it be on drugs or on vaccines or on seeds.

Vandana Shiva: So the gene editing, which is the new GMO technique and the first two applications had to back off because they said, “This is not a GMO.” And then John Fagan found a test which could detect that it is a GMO, and then they realized they could be sued because they wanted to sell it as natural but take a patent. But the company that is collecting the patents on gene-edited organisms, whether in health or in agriculture, is a company called Editas started by the person who was the main financial investor for Gates’ Foundation and Gates is a very, very big investor in Editas.

Vandana Shiva: So here’s a company called Editas to edit the world as if it is a Word program. The two scientists who got the Nobel this year have both been funded in their research by Gates.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Oh, Jennifer Doudna who got it for CRISPR.

Vandana Shiva: Right, and my mind went back to how Rockefeller financed the research, got a Nobel [Prize], and then made the money. So you finance the research. You finance the public institutions whether they be national or international, but you then invest and you force them down the path where they can only use what is your patented intellectual property.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Wow.

Vandana Shiva: And as he has said in an interview, his smartest investment was vaccines because it is 1 to 20 return. One to 20 return. One dollar put in, $20 made. But how many billions of dollars have been put in? So you can imagine how many trillions would be made.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually Crypto would’ve been a better investment than that. But yeah, still I saw that interview. I think it was at Davos. It was some cold place, and he was bragging about the 20 to 1 return. But you’re right, when you put in billions, it adds up. It adds up quite rapidly.

Vandana Shiva: Dr. Mercola, I haven’t finished the story.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Okay. I’m sorry. I’m sorry for interrupting.

Vandana Shiva: So at the end of it, where does food come from? It comes from seed. He wants to control it. It comes from land. He’s controlling that. He’s became the biggest land owner.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vandana Shiva: And that’s all over the place with Forbes, and it doesn’t even have to be an investigative journalist digging this up. It’s now the top financial news. But you need weather. You need a stable climate. So what could be a weapon of control of an agriculture? Weather modification. He calls it geoengineering. This is engineering the climate, again, making it look like he’s going to solve global warming by creating global cooling, by polluting the atmosphere. And in fact, there’s going to be a campaign launched and have been asked to be part of that launch where he’s financing Harvard to do a geoengineering experiment.

Vandana Shiva: But this weather modification and modifying the Earth’s balance is not just a way of destabilizing the Earth’s climate systems more, but then taking into your hands the decisions you’ll make the create rain at harvest time, to create a drought when farms should be getting sowed. And we have had very strange occurrences. This kind of a predictability of weather and we know there’s climate change. But somehow in harvest time in India, you have to have horrible hailstorms and the hail stones are sometimes that big.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Wow.

Vandana Shiva: So weather modification and worst, to me, the worst crime against the Earth and against humanity is using gene editing technologies for gene drives, which is a collaboration of Gates with DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency), the defense research system, and the gene drives are deliberate driving to extinction. Now he does it in the name of ending malaria. No. It’s about driving to extinction.

Vandana Shiva: Monsanto created super weeds by using Roundup-resistant soil and Roundup-resistant corn. Amaranth is one of the biggest super weeds. Amaranth is a sacred food for us. Very, very important source of nutrition, both green as well as in gray. There’s an application in that DARPA-Gates report of driving the amaranth to extinction through gene rights. And when this was raised at the Convention on Biological Diversity, you know what he did, he actually hired a public relations agency and bribed government representatives to not say no. Can you imagine?

Vandana Shiva: He is corrupting the UN (United Nations) system. He’s of course corrupted the governments already. We’ve seen that with the whole WHO phenomena. But now he’s destroying the edifice we built over the last 20 to 30 years in protecting the global environment. Whether it be the climate treaty, the biodiversity treaty or the atmospheric treaties, he is absolutely behaving as if the UN is his subservient institution. Governments and regulatory bodies should not exist and do not exist. And of course, people in democracy have no business to speak otherwise they’re conspiracy theorists.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Well, that is pretty amazing compilation of information about Bill Gates. So I’m curious, really curious, as to what your speculations are for his motivations because he’s already one of the wealthiest people in the world. I mean, it’s hard to imagine having a billion dollars and being able to spend it all in your lifetime, but he’s got over $100 billion. So it clearly isn’t money alone. I think you alluded earlier it was power, but is there an endgame for acquiring even more power than he already has in control? Is it related to the fact that his father was a leader in the movement of Planned Parenthood, and some speculate this is a tendency towards eugenics and really depopulation strategy? I mean, what is your best guess as to what’s motivating this unbelievable collection of activities that seems to be dedicated to decimating the population of the Earth?

Vandana Shiva: Well, I think money of course has a role in this otherwise he wouldn’t need to do investment through his philanthropy. He’d do plain philanthropy. Then he’d give, and his money would keep decreasing, right? If I have $100 billion and every year I’m giving away a few billion, I should have less of it.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: No, no, but he-

Vandana Shiva: He gets more of it.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: And you know how he does that? He does it through loopholes in the tax system.

Vandana Shiva: Exactly.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: His foundation is actually able to invest in other companies that directs him – personally should be absolutely illegal and should be in jail, but he’s able to do it.

Vandana Shiva: Yeah, but I think these are the issues that need to be taken up because what’s happened is that ordinary people are having to fight the individual battles when these are about institutional, structural, societal crimes and they need to be taken up the way Rockefeller was taken up and Standard Oil was broken down. So all the empires, and the Gates empire is multiple empires. But at the end of it, it’s one empire. So definitely making more money because those who fall into the trap of making money don’t know when to stop. I call it the economy of the cancer cell. They don’t know when to stop. But it is definitely power. The love for power.

Vandana Shiva: And I feel this kind of love for power, at the end of it comes from deep fear. It comes from a deep fear of small people living joyfully in their freedom. Yeah, I got $100 billion. [inaudible 00:33:03] at that poor peasant who loves to till the soil. I’m going to take that away from them. So it’s fear of freedom, the fear of the small, and the freedom of life without you.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Interesting. Yeah, so that’s a good observation. Appreciate that. In response to these efforts, you’ve committed some serious effort towards projects to counter this strategy that Gates is using and all nefarious efforts that result from it. So I’m wondering in one of them is actually collaborating with us in Regeneration International. So maybe you can discuss a little bit about that collaboration now.

Vandana Shiva: Regeneration International grew out of the fact that the organic was being totally attacked, and we knew that there had been a commodification of organic too. So we got together and Ronnie [Cummins] and André [Leu] and Hans Herren and I, we created the Regeneration International, which is an amazing movement. And definitely in the United States has picked up, and I noticed no matter what the movement, they’re using the word regeneration now. Could be a health movement, could be a democracy movement, it could be a peace movement, be a women’s movement, everyone has realized the regeneration is what we have to shift to.

Vandana Shiva: So what do we need to be doing in the next – I mean, for me, the next decade is the determining decade. So I take my mind back-

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Wait, wait, wait. Let’s stop there. Why is the next decade the determining decade?

Vandana Shiva: Because these petty minds, insatiable greed wants to go so fast that if in the next decade we don’t protect what has to be protected and build resilient alternatives and take away the sainthood from this criminal, they will leave nothing much there to be saved. So when 87 chemical corporations, the poison cartel, which is also the Big Pharma. People think, “Agriculture’s here, medicine is here.” No. The same criminal corporations gave us agri-chemicals. They gave us bad medicine that creates more disease than it solves.

Vandana Shiva: So Big Pharma, Big Ag, Big Poison, all one. And Bill Gates is holding it all together even more, and trying to make them bigger because he has investments in all of them. All of them. He’s constantly investing.

Vandana Shiva: So when the chemical companies said, “We own all the seed and no farmer will be allowed to save their seeds. And we’ll have an international law. All seeds will come from us. We’ll be five companies, and all seeds will be GMO and patented.” And I said, “No. You won’t have your way. We save one seed at a time. One seed at a time with all the love we can pour into that saving.” And today’s seed saving is a global movement. It’s totally a global movement, the Seeds Freedom Movement.

Vandana Shiva: So I think that’s the first place we have to begin because Gates wants our seeds. Gates wants our seeds. And I will be sending a letter to you and Regeneration very soon because when Iraq was invaded, one of the things done was an Iraqi Order 81 that made it illegal for Iraqis to use their own seeds. The Iraqis approached me about this Iraqi Order 81, and I’ve been saving seeds. And I said, “Let’s just call for seed freedom.” We started. I’ve been building global movements anyway. So I’m hoping that we will be able together launch a global movement soon to take back our seeds from our international seed banks. These are our public common codes.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Okay.

Vandana Shiva: He cannot enclose them.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: So you referenced earlier that Gates was funding this. [crosstalk 00:37:37] Vandana Shiva:

Funding and controlling now.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Controlling. [crosstalk 00:37:40] So what is your strategy to address that?

Vandana Shiva: The strategy is we need to remind the world that these are public institutions.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Vandana Shiva: That they’re accountable to the farmers whose collections these are.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: But is that reminder going to be sufficient to counter the funding that Gates is supplying?

Vandana Shiva: His funding is meaningless. His funding is meaningless because if the farmers, as the true givers of seed, are served their rights – I want to just remind you one more thing, Dr. Mercola. So you know we drove out golden rice from India. Golden rice is this fake solution to vitamin A deficiency. Hundreds of percent inferior to the greens we can grow in our field. Gates is funding it in the Philippines and pushing it and bypassing every safety law. But there’s a huge stop golden rice campaign in Philippines.

Vandana Shiva: We stopped in 2010. We stopped the Bt eggplant in India through public hearings. Gates is funding it in Bangladesh. He would like to spread it to the world from there.

Vandana Shiva: So all the failed first-generation GMOs and the next-generation GMOs, he’d like to control. So just the other day I did a webinar that these are failed technologies. The Bt cotton failed. The farmers’ suicides were because of its failure and the death we created. So we need to tell that full story.

Vandana Shiva: So on the seed question, you’ve got to continue on our seed freedom. On the food question, I think that’s the big one because food and health go like this as you know better than anyone else. In Ayurveda, it says “Annam Sarvaushadhi” — food is the best medicine. And if you don’t eat good food, then no medicine can cure whatever disease you have. The best medicine is good eating. And Hippocrates said, “Let food be thy medicine.”

Vandana Shiva: So I think this is the time now to really grow a very, very big global campaign on food freedom. Food freedom means you cannot destroy our right to grow food. Two, you cannot destroy our government’s obligations to us to support regenerative agriculture rather than support your degenerative agriculture and subsidize you. And the third, I think we should give a call on boycott of his lab foods. Boycott lab foods, like we said. Ronnie was with me in the U.N. meeting when we launched the GMO-free campaign. Way back October ’95 to ’96.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: That’s an interesting strategy. I like it. I’m up for that one.

Vandana Shiva: So let’s do this.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: A worldwide boycott. A worldwide boycott.

Vandana Shiva: A worldwide boycott. Yeah. Because they need a lot of advertising and a lot of brainwashing in order to get there. But if you already announce the boycott and un-bother all the conscious eaters of the world, all the organic producers and eaters, and all the people working on health through food. I know so many cancer specialists who contact me who’ve given up their practices in medicine and are only doing organic farming. And they [crosstalk 00:41:17] organic farm. Their clinics are the organic farms. Say, “Come here, you want to be treated? Come here.”

Vandana Shiva: So I think we can create – let’s work on this together. Dr. Mercola, I’m onboard with you. Let us create a campaign from now, and we can do it in October. Sixteenth of October is World Food Day.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Okay.

Vandana Shiva: 2nd of October every year we launch a two-week campaign on food freedom. We do it in Navdanya forever and ever. So from 2nd October, nonviolence day, the day of Gandhi’s birth anniversary, two weeks of nonviolent food systems. Boycott food that’s making you sick.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: I love it. I love it. Yeah. Not only does it hurt them financially in the pocketbook, but it also improves the health of the people participating in the boycott. So it’s a win-win-win.

Vandana Shiva: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. We do it together. We do it together.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Great. I love that. Oh, man. So this is a fun journey. I mean, it’s so easy to get despondent and depressed about everything that’s happening. I mean, just listening to your description of what Gates has done. You just want to give up. But if you take it as an inverse paranoid perspective and it’s a problem. It’s great because we can find a solution to make it even better than you could possibly imagine. So I’m excited. It’s going to be some challenges, but there’s definitely many things to do.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Gates is only part of the problem. I mean, it’s much bigger than just Gates.

Vandana Shiva: No, no. They put him in front because they thought he’s a good angel now. If he was his old self, they’d have picked someone else.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yeah, yeah. He’s a spokesperson. Yeah.

Vandana Shiva: He had a makeover, and he’s a spokesperson. And the sad thing is the control of a media, the control of a digital media-

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Vandana Shiva: The way they can just remove your communication. I’ve lived through this because when I was fighting Monsanto, my personal website is still down. They didn’t ever let it work. Whenever I do a brief for our courts, my systems would crash. I’d have to dictate and write by hand and sit with my secretary, and she’d use her personal email to send to the lawyer. I mean, I don’t know how I fought Monsanto for a decade. But today, Monsanto is gone, and it’s Bayer. So when you think of it, Monsanto was the most powerful evil company then. It’s gone. Let’s envision a world that a decade from now, just like Monsanto disappeared, Gates as a philanthropist will disappear.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yeah, yeah.

Vandana Shiva: The master of the universe idea will go, and he will go and do penance somewhere.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Well, it’s not just Gates, as we discussed. It’s the technocrats. It’s Klaus Schwab. It’s stealth people behind the scenes who are also billionaires, like Eric Schmidt who really directed Google from their ostensibly noble goals when they first started to where they’re at now. Literally probably headed to replace Monsanto as the most evil company on the planet. So we got to avoid those.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: It’s essentially the one word to describe all of them is technocrats.

Vandana Shiva: I did a little book with the leading Ayurveda of India, Dr. Gangadharan because these patents were coming out. The Impossible Burger patents and then the Microsoft patent on us being users of their machines and algorithms. The Google patent on putting nanoparticles in our blood to solve the problem of anemia. That’s when I realized they’ve got into life sciences, Google. So this little book is called “The Two Futures of Food, Health and Humanity.” And my colleagues with whom I worked in Kerala, the people who did the Ayurveda bit, they put it as a Kindle. I think you can download it as a Kindle.

Vandana Shiva: But to your listeners, I’d like to mention that in the first week of April, Annam is food, but food in its wholeness. We do a five-day course — it’ll be on Zoom now — where we connect the issue of soil, biodiversity, healthy eating and good health. So the Annam course will on the Navdanya Earth University website, and people can visit the Earth University website and hopefully join.

Vandana Shiva: And finally, I’ve just on Women’s Day released a new report written with women farmers, “Earth Rising, Women Rising.”

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Well, that’s great. That is awesome. Congratulations. It’s exciting.

Vandana Shiva: If I was clearer, I’d be putting it in a chat box and, but I can do one thing at a time on these gadgets.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Well, we’ll do that on our article. So you don’t have to worry about it. We’ll take care of that because it’s important. It’s part of the communication strategy. So this is a good. Is it sort of extension in that thinking the big picture to achieve your incredible, noble and ambitious goal of having equal success in squashing this movement that Gates is spearheading. As we squash it, what it seemed to be an inevitable control of Monsanto to the point where they were litigated out of existence after they were bought by Bayer.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Part of it’s going to be collaborating with like-minded individuals, and I saw – actually, we posted it as a lead article on our site recently that Russell Brand – you know who Russell is, right?

Vandana Shiva: No. I didn’t know, but a lot of people – now, he got in touch with me now. Yeah.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Oh good because that was so cool to see him. You’re his hero. He like worships you. He loves you.

Vandana Shiva: That video was an interview by France 24 two years ago when my French edition of my book “Oneness vs. the 1%” was being released. They got the wrong title in the back, but the French edition has sold thousands and thousands because you know it was the French scientist who had shown that Roundup is a carcinogen.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yes, absolutely.

Vandana Shiva: And Gilles-Eric Séralini. They hounded him and hounded him and hounded him. The French know very well what the Monsanto mafia is, just that the Monsanto, Bayer, Gates, Google mafia is becoming one big lump of sickness. That’s why this lump of – let’s just call them the cancer on the planet.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yeah, I would agree. That’s a good name for them.

Vandana Shiva: Yes.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Well, that’s good. So I’m so excited spokespeople like Russell recognized the truth when he sees it and can help spread the message. We’ll just collaborate with more and more people because one of the reasons that we’re so confident we’re going to win is we outnumber them tremendously. They don’t stand a chance if we all organize and collaborate, and they understand that. That’s one of the reasons why they’re focusing so darn hard on censorship. The spreading of the truth information to the public because they know if large numbers of people get ahold of this information, it’s death to their ambitions.

Vandana Shiva: Yeah, which is why we need to defend two things very much. Wherever we can, talk people to people. Don’t give that up because that’s what they want to shut down. The people to people conversation. And from my culture, besides the ecology and the Ayurveda and all of that, what I’ve realized is, my god, our civilization was so clever. They attacked organic. We create regeneration. Now they are attacking regeneration. Everyone’s winging a tissy. Here in India, we never created one word for one thing because no one thing is just one thing. It is so many facets.

Vandana Shiva: So the [inaudible 49:52] has a thousand names. The divine, feminine beauty has a thousand names. We always give a thousand names. So they can attack one, we still got 999. We will always [be] against the 1%. We will always have the diversity, multiplicity and freedom of the 99%.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yeah, yeah. Because of the resources, they’re very sophisticated, very clever and they can create some strategies that are hard to circumvent. But we outnumber them, and as long as we cooperate and collaborate, I think – I don’t think. I’m confident we can defeat them. So I’m just so excited to be able to work with you and other like-minded people because we need to work as a team because it really is a David versus Goliath.

Vandana Shiva: Yeah.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: With respect to economic resources and funding, but with respect to the numbers, there’s no comparison.

Vandana Shiva: And David won.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: That’s right. Victory. He did. He did. He has some strong spiritual forces on his side.

Vandana Shiva: Well, we have them all on our side, don’t we? Yeah.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: I know, we sure do. We sure do. It’s going to be fun.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: I think we’ll put your contact information and your website. I think when I was reviewing one of your other articles, I was a little bit surprised to see that you had a Gmail account as a contact information. So maybe we can encourage you to consider stop using the Google nefarious-

Vandana Shiva: No, no. Actually, that’s the only one I give it away publicly. But my son has prepared my own.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Okay, good. Good.

Vandana Shiva: My own server.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: We don’t want anyone-

Vandana Shiva: I have my own server, yeah.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: We don’t want anyone using Google.

Vandana Shiva: I don’t give that out publicly.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: All right. Good. All right. Any last words in closing to sum it all up and give recommendations?

Vandana Shiva: Yeah, no. When all the spiritual forces and all of Nature’s forces and most of people’s forces are aligned together, what can five billionaires, technocrats who want to be richer than they are, greedier than they are, more violent than they are – they don’t count in the long run really. So it’s just that we cannot afford to not do the things we can do.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: All right.

Vandana Shiva: Together.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: I agree. One is a boycott on this thing. So I’m excited about that.

Vandana Shiva: Boycott. Yeah, absolute boycott fake food, and I think another part of this should be don’t – Big Tech is already messed up its surveillance capitalism. Let Big Tech not enter our bodies. Let Big Tech not enter life sciences.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: I couldn’t agree more. Absolutely, totally onboard with that and am fascinated with that concept because there’s a lot of details behind what you just said. I’m really focusing much of my free time and attention on that now because I’m trying to understand the big picture because it’s huge. It really is. It’s a very complex [crosstalk 00:53:14]-

Vandana Shiva: Running very fast on very, very bad ground. I worked on nanoparticle assessments, and we said, “It can’t be assessed. Don’t go down that way.” A technology whose safety you can’t know should not be given permission to go ahead [inaudible 00:53:27].

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Right. Precautionary principle.

Vandana Shiva: Yeah, absolutely the precautionary principle. So I think if you were to start pulling together all the homeopaths, the Ayurvedic physicians, the natural healers, these are people who make choices in their lives to do the right thing. If they don’t get together now, exactly what Carnegie and Rockefeller did to say all natural medicine is illegal. These guys will make life illegal. Living will be illegal except as a little piece in their machine under their permission, through their permission. The rest of you are throwaway people.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: Yeah. It sounds odd, but the technology I’m a big fan of and it’s advancing so rapidly, exponentially actually that that will be practical reality because they’re converting all of us into digital assets. I think that’s their plan and that they can control and manipulate and essentially dictate their ultimate goals. But it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. We just have to bring awareness to it and we can resist it.

Dr. Joseph Mercola: So happy to connect with you and look forward to working with you in the future.

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